May / 15

Taking a Closer Look at the Federal Guidance on School Discipline [IEP 028]

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With the Trump administration and several members of Congress, including Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos, considering assembling a proposed Federal Commission on School Safety to repeal 2014 guidelines regarding school disciplinary action, we thought it would be important to take a closer look at how any changes in these disciplinary actions could disproportionately affect children of color and children living with disabilities.

Full show transcript at the bottom of this post.

What We Discuss:

  • How school disciplinary actions affect children living with disabilities, many of whom have behavioral challenges that are involuntary
  • Why any reconsideration of disciplinary action should include awareness of how the guidelines and rules apply to all children
  • Why gun violence control is merely an excuse given by DeVos in order to change current disciplinary guidelines
  • Instead of completely repealing and overhauling the current guidelines, why it’s better to attempt to strengthen the current guidelines
  • Why there is a disparity in how discipline is applied in various situations and with regards to various students
  • Could the training of independent professionals help solve arbitrary application within schools?

Resources Mentioned:


Alex Casillas article

Contact Information for Betsy DeVos’s office:

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 Full Show Transcript

Vickie Brett:                      Welcome to the Inclusive Education Project. I’m Vickie Brett.

Amanda Selogie:              I’m Amanda Selogie. We’re two civil rights lawyers on a mission to change the conversation about education, civil rights, and modern activism.

Vickie Brett:                      Each week we’re gonna explore new topics which are going to educate and empower others.

Amanda Selogie:              And give them a platform to enact change in education and level the playing field.

Hi, listeners, welcome back. This is Amanda.

Vickie Brett:                      Oh, we don’t have a guest today, why are you introducing yourself?

Amanda Selogie:              I guess, I don’t know. [crosstalk 00:00:47]

Vickie Brett:                      I didn’t do it the last time.

Amanda Selogie:              Damn it, Vickie. Oh man. Well yeah, you’ve been listening to us with guests for so many weeks, I feel like we’ve had a guest …

Vickie Brett:                      We’re going back to the OG, just Amanda and me.

Amanda Selogie:              Just us, you’ll have to deal with just us.

Vickie Brett:                      I just need everybody to know that that rhymed.

Amanda Selogie:              Oh my gosh. I was going to say that this weekend … by the time you hear this, this will already have happened, but I’ll have to check back in after this weekend happens, but I don’t know that I’ve mentioned this on the pod, but I’m a council member for the Orange County Childcare and Developmental Planning Council, which is a section of the Orange County Council that governs over early education, childcare centers in Orange County. There’s some things that the council does dealing with licensing of preschools, care centers, that sort of thing. But one part that I’m in part of is the collaboration committee. So our main role and goal in the committee is to help early childcare, preschool center-based programs, after school programs be more inclusive. And be more inclusive to all children, but specifically kids with disabilities. So we decided this year, as a committee, that we were going to put on a mini conference, a one day conference. We actually have that tomorrow, and we’re really excited about it, because …

Vickie Brett:                      Not for like, the public.

Amanda Selogie:              No, it’s for educators. So, it’s based for educators in the preschool setting in home-based or center-based preschools, childcare centers, even after school programs, so we kind of have those three set ups as kind of our focus. We talk about discipline a lot, and we talk about challenging behaviors, and how to appropriately address challenging behaviors in an educational setting, and one thing that is often done is, we’re very quick to just look at the individual child. The child that’s having those challenging behaviors, and figure out what can we do to address that child’s behavior. But, what if we can develop a system whereby the entire center is coming up with strategies and modalities to address behavior appropriate, and not appropriate behavior within the setting as a whole. So looking at a holistic approach to a learning environment.

Vickie Brett:                      So, that’s a really interesting segue into what we’re going to be talking about today. At the end of March the Secretary of Education here, the United States of America wanted to take action on school discipline. In 2014, under the civil rights guidance, under the Obama administration the Department of Education and Justice somewhat put schools on notice that they could be found in violation of civil rights laws if they enforced intentionally discriminatory rules. Or if their policies led to disproportionate rates, or higher rates of discipline.

Essentially, after Parkland, DeVos, Jeffrey Sessions, a bunch of other people wanted to come together and see how they could repeal what this school discipline policy … their perspective is that we’re just not disciplining people enough. That’s not what …

Amanda Selogie:              I would beg to differ.

Vickie Brett:                      Right.

Amanda Selogie:              Mr. Sessions.

Vickie Brett:                      And the government accountability office actually just released a report that she knew about that found that black students are consistently disciplined at higher rates than, obviously, non-black students, so some of the numbers that they had thrown out were that black students represented 15.5 percent of public school students. This was in the 2013-2014 school year. They made up 39 percent of the students that were suspended, so the baseline for where the Obama administration was coming from was like, “look, you can have school discipline, but you cannot be using these tactics in disciplining children of color, or those with disabilities more often than their non-disabled or non-colored counterparts.”

What Amanda and I were talking about, and of course this happened at the end of March, and we wanted to wait a little bit to see if they had met. I know they had met again in April. There’s no timeframe that’s been set up by Ms. DeVos, but there have been 12 round tables on school discipline, and early April was one of the first ones that she had gone to. So, we don’t necessarily have a timeline as to, if they’re going to repeal it or not, but Amanda and I thought-

Amanda Selogie:              But it’s a problem.

Vickie Brett:                      Right. It’s important to know the facts, right? That’s why we wanted to talk about our experiences with school discipline, disciplinary actions of students of color, and of the students that we represent. Obviously, students with disabilities.

Amanda Selogie:              Yeah, and why I bring up this conference that’s happening tomorrow, is because we start with getting children with challenging behaviors very early on. When they’re really young. There’s not as much of a focus on extinguishing these behaviors and addressing them in a way that doesn’t just put a band-aid on it, but really addresses the underlying issue. We can say a child has behaviors, but that doesn’t really give us an answer. There’s so many reasons why a child may have behaviors, whether it’s at home, in a school setting, in a daycare environment, and unfortunately, that has an impact on the way that they learn. Whether it’s early education, so the learning to learn, or actually in school learning academics, and what we see is if it’s not being addressed early on, they carry that over into the school setting. They start getting into … it’s ridiculous how many times I see kindergartners facing expulsion. That shouldn’t happen.

Vickie Brett:                      Remember when we were at COPAA a couple years back, and COPA is the nationwide organization Council of Parent Attorneys and Advocates, they hold one of the biggest special education conferences that Amanda and I go to every year. I say that really quick because that wasn’t my point, but remember one of the advocates was talking about, I think it was a four year old that was in handcuffs, had disability, and she showed up, and she’s like, “you have this four year old in handcuffs.”

Amanda Selogie:              Remember, we had a client … how many years ago was that? One thing we see, and I’ll mention this case, but we see a disproportionality of the way that schools handle discipline. So we see over discipline, where kids are having minimal behaviors, most of the time behaviors that are a manifestation of their disability, meaning they have no control over what it is that’s happening, and yet you want to say that they have control to the point, because what’s the purpose of discipline? Discipline is to try to prevent and deter them from doing what it is that they’re doing, again. Right? But, if the person doing the action that leads to the discipline doesn’t understand why they’re doing that action or have control over the fact that they are doing that action, discipline is not going to deter, or prohibit them from doing it in the future. But we see these schools that are over disciplined, but then we see these other schools that we have students who have real mental health issues, that need intervention. And these schools are refusing to even give them IEPs, let alone putting them into a more restrictive setting that they may need.

So we’re not seeing this consistency, and I think we do see, and I do believe this whole thing came about from the Parkland shooting, because people are up in arms saying, “well, schools have the knowledge that there are students out there, and they’re just not disciplining enough.” What I would say to that, is that’s bullshit. Because, there’s plenty of schools that are disciplining too often.

Vickie Brett:                      You’ve got to look at what a typical shooter looks like, right? Like, white male. When you’re talking about [crosstalk 00:09:12]

I could look it up, you could look it up.

Amanda Selogie:              I’m not saying … I agree with you.

Vickie Brett:                      I feel confident, all the research that’s out there that has said that, so that’s fine, bring it. But it’s one of those situations where you need to take a step back and you need to look, okay, well who is being over disciplined? The black male that has a disability, or black males that were even getting diagnosed, or not even diagnosed, but if the school identifies them. We’ve seen that, we’ve talked to Dr. Anne Simon about it all the time, the disparity between wanting to try to categorize … we just, it’s all we want to do, right? And that’s why we talk about in the inclusive education project, labels are for clothes. Everybody wants to label, it’s a hot topic, we get it. It’s a two-prong problem.

So, for us, we want to step back and we want to see what is it that schools are doing, because discipline does isolate a child. If you’re expelling them, if you’re suspending them, it isolates it, and there’s plenty of school districts out there, and schools that are using programs with positive techniques. They can promote emotional well-being. That in and of itself can reduce problem behaviors, it can increase pro-social behavior, like improved emotional regulation, and then all of that goes to improvement of academic achievement.

Amanda Selogie:              Well, and the point is that this administration is trying to repeal guidelines, and I’m going to say it again: guidelines. So it’s not a market ban, it’s not a requirement, it’s guidelines to help schools understand that discipline is not the only answer, so it’s not to say that these guidelines are requiring schools to do, or to not do something. It is providing them with the information and the platform for appropriately addressing a problem. Now, are these guidelines perfect? No. Are a lot of these schools following these guidelines? No, probably not. But the point is that they are there, and they are helping some schools in some school districts. The minute you take that away, where are we going to be?

Vickie Brett:                      Well, it’s like, civil rights. It’s just like I’m trying to explain this to you, here’s some guidance on it, and Alexis Casillas on a [inaudible 00:11:23] contributor for The Hill wrote this really compelling argument, and it was titled “For our children’s sake, keep the federal guidance on school discipline.” This was published on March 24, 2018, so we’re going to be taking a lot from what she was saying, to back up, because they didn’t say it correctly.

So, the guidance from 2014 from the Department of Education was entitled “Rethinking Discipline.” So it wasn’t saying that we’re getting rid of it …

Amanda Selogie:              Which is exactly what we should be doing, we should be rethinking discipline.

Vickie Brett:                      And just reframing the issue, let’s just look at discipline, and basically, like I said, again, it was just based on preventing disparity, which was being done based on race and disability. We have civil rights, and we have protected classes, and we learned this in Con Law …

Amanda Selogie:              And we know that this is a problem.

Vickie Brett:                      And race and disability are of that class that is protected. So that’s all it was doing, right? And they’re saying, listen, there’s a range of strategies that can reduce misbehavior and maintain safe learning environments, and that’s all we want. We’re trying to promote … and that we’re even about schools having to be safe. We just took it for granted. We’re in a different …

Amanda Selogie:              That’s the crazy part, when we talk about children who are having challenging behaviors, and whether they lead towards incidents that we choose schools wanting to suspend and expel. There’s a difference there between that and then the kid who’s going to bring a gun to school. We have people now in this administration who are roping the two together. Because they don’t wanna face the real situation, the real situation about needing gun control, needing mental health awareness, needing to change our culture. Everything that we’ve talked about before. They don’t want to face those problems, so it’s easy to just blame it on something else. And we already know that Ms. DeVos is already, her goal of dismantling the education system one by one, how many regulations has she already retracted in her short time in this position? It’s really crazy, because these are things that are put in place, and I get it. People are very quick to say, well this policy or this guidelines, or this or that are not working.

So, if something isn’t perfect, we just throw it away. We don’t try to fix it, we don’t try to improve upon it, we just throw it away? That’s not the right way to think about it.

Vickie Brett:                      There’s just so many different countries that do things differently, and I understand the basic premise of the argument of “I want smaller government.” Okay. But it is difficult for me in California to sit here and see how children in different states with disabilities are treated. And seeing those families flee to California, which I’m not even saying that California is perfect.

Amanda Selogie:              No! We have our problems too, but …

Vickie Brett:                      It’s a hell of a lot better than, wherever … I’m not going to call states out, because everybody has different experiences.

Amanda Selogie:              How many times did we already say we’re so lucky we live in California, and just not because of the weather. I mean, because of the weather, but other things too.

Vickie Brett:                      That’s what you have to think about. We have the Constitution, we have these basic civil liberties, and we have these civil rights. If the government is out there to protect us from ourselves, essentially, and like I said, I know people, “Oh, we want smaller government, the states should have more control.” The state is still a form of government, so when they are taking away the fact that, and that’s what people don’t understand with this whole private schools … Private schools are private entities, so there are certain guidelines, not even guidelines, laws that they have to abide by, but for the most part, they do not have the same responsibilities that a public school.

So, for instance, providing that individualized education program for a child with special needs, now don’t get me wrong, some of these private schools, we’ve seen it … They’re opening pilot programs and things like that, but we have federal legislation that says, “Oh no, to be a special education teacher, you have to have a minimum of this, this, and this.”

Amanda Selogie:              Well you need to understand the dynamics, because it’s already enough that you have to learn to be a teacher, in terms of learning the content that you’re teaching, and then how to teach. But then, if you’re dealing with any kind of learning challenges, or behaviors, or disabilities, or medical issues, you need to know a lot more.

Vickie Brett:                      And before going to throwing it away like you had said, I would love for this commission for school safety to step back and think, “wait, why don’t we try to instill school wide positive behavioral support programs.” And this is something that Alexis actually talked about in her article, and she had said, why don’t we try to start with training for staff. For locally selected, for specifically tailored programs that she “Successfully resolve behavioral challenges and significantly reduce student suspensions and office discipline referrals.”

Training, how much is that really gonna cost? Instead of sitting here, and being like whatever Obama did, we’re just gonna repeal it. Can we just take a moment to actually brainstorm this, and figure out if we just put a little bit of time and attention …

And if it doesn’t work, you shut me up. But you’re not even trying it?

Amanda Selogie:              It’s the same thing that we deal with, when we deal with bullying. We’re doing nothing. We’re doing nothing. We’re putting up a poster on a middle school, that says, “If you see something, say something.” That’s bullshit, I’m sorry. At the end of the day, it’s not enough. We’re not doing enough. We have kids that are struggling, and the majority of times, yes there’s ways that schools can be figuring things out sooner, detecting that there’s an issue before it leads to needing suspension, but the majority of times if they were to stop and think before going straight to, “I’m gonna send you to the principal’s office. I’m going to suspend you. You’ve had several suspensions, so I’m gonna expel you.” Or, just right off the bat … And by the way, so we’re giving complete deference to school administrators, that if they think some kind of action is so severe that they can just go and expel kids?

That’s part of the point of these guidelines and a part of why we need to be reforming the way that we teach schools and school administrators. I’m sorry, but if one person has complete control over whether or not a student gets suspended or expelled … that’s what we’re seeing one school where a kid, I’ll bring it back to that example, we had a five year old who got up on a table and was pretend sword fighting with a small flag.

Vickie Brett:                      He brandished it like a knife

Amanda Selogie:              They claim that he brandished it like a knife or a sword, and we’re dealing with a five year old, who’s dealing in imaginative play. Which is what they’re supposed to do at that age.

Vickie Brett:                      I just don’t even understand how it got to the point where they were just letting him wild out.

Amanda Selogie:              And we’re going to expel this kid, but then we have another, we have physical assault on kids, and bullying, that nothing is happening. We deal with such a disparity in what is happening and we don’t have those consistencies because it’s subjective. Whether we use discipline in terms of suspensions, expulsions, that sort of thing, it’s very subjective. It’s been allowed to be subjective, we’re getting this problem, and there needs to be some kind of guidance. Now, is the guidance that we have, is it perfect? No, just like our education laws aren’t. It is something that we need to work towards, and I really don’t think that there’s that many problems with the guidelines, it’s just what you went back to saying, what Alexis said, it’s about the training. It’s about needing someone to train the educators how to better recognize and handle.

Vickie Brett:                      And people are doing all sorts of research, I’m not saying that positive reinforcement is the way to go, I only know in my limited capacity in the things that I’ve experienced how positive reinforcement … Now, does it work for every child? No. Different children have different disabilities, but I think that for the most part, there’s enough research out there, and I get it, you don’t have time to research it. That’s why professionals out there that the school district can have train, and if we put that emphasis on it, I think that that would be a nice place to start. I don’t think attacking and just repealing anything that Obama did without really, truly, wholly, understanding that the basis for which we had the 2014 discipline rethinking was, hey, we’re seeing a disproportionate amount of African-American males being suspended, so Alexis actually put this in her article.

“A black male with a disability attending secondary school, is suspended at nearly twice the rate, 33.8 percent, of a white male peer with a disability, which was 16.2 percent.”

And she says it. “We can and must do better.”

It’s kind of stemming from that, and different people have different takes, but that’s the point, is letting these schools be able to have that localized program and see what works for them, and what doesn’t. I’m not saying take that outside of them, or force something that they don’t want to do, but I’m sure the principal in Compton is having a very different day than the principal out in Laguna Niguel. But, that training, and coming from that understanding it’s so much more that easy go-to.

I remember reading an article about right after Parkland, it was about this teacher that starts her fifth or fourth grade classroom with everybody turning to somebody different in the class, and this happens every day, and asking just checking in with that person, “How are you?” Then it forced any kid that, there were no kids in her class that were isolated in the corner. Everybody was included in a sense, or learning those socialization skills, or learning those, even coping skills. My fifth grade teacher did that. We would start every morning with shaking people’s hands, and learning that you look a person in the eye, and you have a somewhat firm handshake, and it seemed really simple, and you got in the habit of doing it, but just that simple … I shake people’s hands, and I’ve had some guys be like, oh, you have a firm handshake, and I’m like, “am I not supposed to?”

Amanda Selogie:              It’s like common courtesies. It starts with treating people like they’re people, and thinking first. One thing that we bring up a lot is, unfortunately, there’s an issue with common sense, sometimes. Being quick to act, before just thinking.

Vickie Brett:                      It’s hard, because common sense comes from experience, and that’s what makes it common. If you experience it, but if you’re sheltered, and you’re not exposing these kids … my fifth grade teacher, he could have not started his day like that, but if he did that for a group of 30 kids over 20 years, shout out to Mr. Balasky. We say this all the time, “Oh, they didn’t learn that in the sandbox.” That’s my take with common sense. Yeah, it’s common, because I’ve worked in special education, so to me, it’s like … but the first time you tell another teacher, why don’t you try this, and they go, “I never thought of that.”

Amanda Selogie:              And that’s part of it, as educators and administrators, if we … I shouldn’t say we because we aren’t educators, but if even when we work with kids, we’re setting an example. Teachers are not just teachers, they’re mentors. They’re role models. We’re supposed to be setting examples for these kids, and if administrators are quick to act before thinking, and thinking things through, then what do you think the kids are going to learn?

Vickie Brett:                      We’ve already seen it with the Trump administration. Him calling people out, making fun of reporter with disabilities, making fun of anybody that’s not from here. We’ve seen the incidences of bullying, I can’t even tell you how many children with parents that are immigrants were afraid to go to school, because little so and so was saying, and that kid was born here, but so and so was telling him, “oh, you need to go back to your country.” They’re learning. The kids are sponges, and they learn from everything that’s around them. Especially with social media and things like that, and all we’re trying to say and we’re not trying to put it all on the administrators, because I’m sure a lot of them, their hands are tied because there are certain district policies, but that’s the whole point of having the civil rights movement in the fifties and the sixties, and where we’re at, and Amanda and I talking about this being a new civil rights.

It’s human rights. It’s just being able to treat somebody with disabilities- and I say this all the time, I don’t mean to say that having a disability is a weakness, it’s just the best analogy that I can make. You’re only as strong as the weakest link, and if you’re able to strengthen that, then you have this chain that’s pretty much unbreakable. That is where Amanda and I come from, and this is our opinion because we saw that there needed to be a need, and we were very cognizant of, “Okay, what do we name it?” Inclusive Education Project.

Sometimes we’ll get people being like, “oh, you’re trying to get into schools, and you’re trying to be more inclusive.” And it’s so much more than that. It is a project, because it’s ongoing, and we want to improve it, it’s relating to education.

Amanda Selogie:              Education isn’t just K-12 education. It’s everybody. Every single person in this world benefits from education. How do you know how to do your job? How do you know how to if you get a new job? How to do that job? You’re learning. People learn everyday. You get a new phone, what do you have to do? Learn how to use it. You get a new TV, or you decide you want to pick up a hobby. You want to go learn to play an instrument, or you decide you want to garden, but you’ve never gardened before. You gotta learn. You gotta learn what you need to do. We’re learning every day, everybody is, education is how we become informed, education is how we know how to do anything, it is one of the most important issues that is not talked about enough. Which is why we want to try an start to change the conversation.

Vickie Brett:                      I don’t think you’d go up to any administrator and be like, “Look. If money was no objective, and you were gonna be given this unlimited amount of knowledge, would you take it?” I’d find it hard pressed to find someone that would be like, “uh, no, absolutely not, I know everything, and I know what I’m doing.” Obviously these people got into the realm of education and, my dad’s whole side of the family, they’re all teachers. Or administrators. When I first became a special education attorney, they were like, “Oh, you’re in special education.” I was like, listen, I’m here for you. When you have 35 kids, and they wanna “Throw in that kid with autism into your class.” I want you to have a one to one aide that has positive behavioral support systems that they’re able to help integrate this child, because maybe this is the first time this kid is in a Gen Ed class and he’s in the fifth grade, and even though he’s making great strides, there’s gonna be some adjustment time.

Amanda Selogie:              The minute they’re in that class, they’re gonna have those positive role models. So it may take a little bit for those challenging behaviors to decrease, and it may take some strategies, and I see that a lot with kids who have challenging behaviors being put in general education, and they’ll have a behavior that is written in the behavior plan, that is written in the IEP, it’s a behavior goal, but they go and they do that, and they get sent to the office. Or they get suspended. Why? We knew that child was gonna have that behavior. That’s the whole reason we have a plan. And maybe the plan is not doing what needs to be done. That’s what we need to change. We don’t need to suspend the kid.

We knew they were gonna have these behaviors, and especially, we can’t expect something to go away overnight. Just like you can’t expect a kid who’s two grades below grade level to catch up in a month. It’s not gonna happen. This stuff takes time, and so we have to figure out, and that’s what really frustrates me … and then the schools are saying, “well, you know what, they kept having these behaviors, they kept getting suspended, so we gotta change their placement, we gotta put them back in the special day class.” It’s not the kid that’s the problem, it’s the program. Why aren’t we developing a better program? So that he can access that curriculum. Rather than saying he’s not allowed to access that because he has these behaviors? He should access it despite the behaviors, because we should be using that program, that classroom as a method for decreasing the behaviors.

Vickie Brett:                      And it goes back to inclusion, opportunity, community. We want to create those opportunities. And they may not access the opportunity, but at least it was there. We’re not just saying it’s all the school’s fault, we get it. Parents have to participate as well and they-

Amanda Selogie:              And the kids have to buy into it.

Vickie Brett:                      Let’s not be on opposite sides, and that’s obviously what Amanda and I see all the time by the time parents get to us, they’re pissed off. Rightly so. They feel like they haven’t been heard, you know, a plethora of other things have happened. We try to be able to … And Amanda being a part of this collaborative for early preschool, we would love to be able to try and empower those parents and let them know they’re right so they can get their kid on the right track, because when you’re a Sophomore in high school, and you’ve never even had a positive behavioral intervention plan, then yeah, it’s gonna be a little hard, we’re not gonna see as much improvement in two years, but we’re trying to get ahead of that, and

I think that that’s another reason that we have this podcast to bring this sort of stuff to light, because it’s easy for you to get your two cents from the radio show, or the TV programming that you watch that says, “oh, this is a great thing! We’re gonna do this federal commission of safety in schools.” And it’s like, heck yes! Who wouldn’t want school safety, but taking a step back and really understanding and I think that that’s what we did with our call of action for the ADA, the change of that law that we had a couple weeks ago where we were asking you guys to make a call of action, and understanding once we broke it down.

I think that in this political climate, facts are just whatever you think that day, they are. Us as attorneys, we don’t live in a world of fantasy, we have to be very logical and have the letter of the law, and I think that’s why we may have this approach and just trying to be able to take the time like we are today to discuss discipline with you guys, and letting you know that it’s not that we are disciplining kids less. It was more so a civil rights notion that kids of color and kids with disabilities were just getting disciplined a heck of a lot more than everyone else. That’s why we were super passionate and wanted to take the time today to discuss it.

Amanda Selogie:              Yeah, very important, I guess we’ll see what comes …

Vickie Brett:                      Yeah, we’ll keep you guys updated.

Amanda Selogie:              And hopefully, DeVos comes to her senses. I doubt it. But if you are so inclined, her office address is online. [crosstalk 00:30:46] Send her a letter. Tell her how you feel about this.

Vickie Brett:                      Actually, in the show notes, we’ll put … there’s an email address. You could actually just send an email, I forgot to pull that up, so I don’t have it. We’ll include it in the show notes for you guys-

Amanda Selogie:              Power of pen and paper, maybe.

Vickie Brett:                      Yeah, we’ll have maybe a call to action. We’re gonna keep an eye on this. We had waited a little bit hoping that by the time May rolled around, but there’s no real timeline. I’m sure there’s a plethora of other things that she’s trying to figure out.

Amanda Selogie:              Well, on a positive note, we’re trying to make waves here in Orange County. I think this conference will do a lot, hopefully. If we can decrease these behaviors in preschool and early childcare, and maybe they’re going to kindergarten on the right foot. I mean that is huge. Huge, huge, huge. Some of these care facilities, they have kids as young as three months old. So we’re dealing in the trenches. First five. First five years, right? So, that’s really important. So if you’re interested in finding out more about what we did at the conference, our hope is to have this as an annual thing, we’ll see how that goes. I think we’ll have a pretty good turnout, so I’ll have to tell you guys about how it goes, but it’s supposed to be nice weather this weekend.

I hope you guys are having spring weather.

Vickie Brett:                      Yeah, hopefully. I don’t know.

Amanda Selogie:              I’m jinxing myself, because I’m gonna be in Boston in a couple weeks, and I’m already looking at the weather, and it’s not looking good. I know, I keep talking about sunshine in California, and I’m gonna be in trouble. If you’re listening in Boston, keep an eye out for me. I’ll be running a half marathon.


Vickie Brett:                      Anyway, hope you guys enjoyed the episode. If not, I’m sure you’ll let us know, and we will try to respond appropriately. We got some good guests lined up. We’re rolling into summer, so that’ll be fun. Gives us more time to be creative, not that we’re not creative. We just have jobs too. So we have that first and foremost, and you know, obviously take care of our health. We’ll keep you guys updated if our schedule changes, but we’re pretty much set for every week for the rest of until we tell you.

Amanda Selogie:              And if you can, tell a friend. If they’re not listening yet, have them subscribe and make sure to get an episode when it drops every Tuesday, and we’ll talk to you next week.

Vickie Brett:                      Bring your ears next week.

Amanda Selogie:              Bye.

Vickie Brett:                      Bye.

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